Mullen Proves His Mettle

Mullen Proves His Mettle

Do Tell, Don’t Discriminate

That was one small step for Mullen, one giant leap for the U.S. military.
I don’t know if Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen was thinking of posterity when he chose his words in support of allowing gays to serve openly and honestly in the U.S. military, but his testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee marks a historic turning point in the debate over ending “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.“
Emphasizing that he was speaking for himself, and himself only, Mullen said, “It is my personal belief that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly would be the right thing to do. No matter how I look at this issue, I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy which forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens.“
In uttering out loud what many in the military have come to believe in the 17 years since the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” compromise was forced on President Clinton by Congress, Admiral Mullen has fired a shot across the bow of members of congress, and fellow military officers who want discrimination against homosexuals to remain the law of the land.
At the end of the day, that IS what the debate is all about, ending discrimination. You either believe gays should be discriminated against, or you don’t. I happen to believe they should not be.
The original idea of allowing gays to serve openly was that they would be judged — like all members of the military — on their conduct, not their sexual orientation.
[Interesting take on Mullen’s maverick stand from my pal Andrea Stone over at AoL news]

Mullen has finally taken a stand, after avoiding any clear-cut position in the past, but he is still equivocating in an effort to appease supporters of DA/DT in congress and in the ranks of the military. “There will be some disruption in the force,” he warns, sounding a little like Obi-Wan Kenobe, and noting that the current ban on gays came about because the American people and Congress “spoke” on the subject.
“There are those on both sides of this debate who speak as if there is no debate,” Mullen said indicating he’d be okay with whatever Congress decides. “We will continue to obey that law, and we will obey whatever legislative and executive decisions come out of this debate.”

Adm. Mike Mullen, Joint Chiefs Chairman, Feb 2, 2010 - DoD photo

Adm. Mike Mullen, Joint Chiefs Chairman, Feb 2, 2010 — DoD photo

Still Mullen went much further than his predecessor Gen. Peter Pace, a marine who held the personal belief that homosexuality — like adultery — is immoral.
And Mullen has given his Commander-in-Chief much more support than Colin Powell gave Bill Clinton, when he told then new president in 1993 that openly acknowledging that gays were in the ranks would require separate accommodations, and warning that his fellow Joint Chiefs, and most of the military, were dead set against it. Powell argued the problem was privacy, and when critics said he was endorsing the kind of bigotry that would have kept him out if the mess hall decades ago, Powell with the argument that “skin color is a benign, nonbehavioral characteristic,” while “sexual orientation is perhaps the most profound of human behavioral characteristics. Comparison of the two is a convenient but invalid argument,” Powell said in a letter to Congress.
In my 16 years of covering the Pentagon, encountered many gays in uniform, and I talked to senior officers who served along side gays, and concluded it wasn’t really much of a threat to “good order and disciple“
When I discussed it with Marine Corps Gen, Jim Jones, (Now National Security Advisor) back in 2008 he told me, “I think it’s time for all of us to generally understand that people can serve and serve honorably regardless of where they come from. I think we should try to keep good people and I think as long as their service is ah, the quality of their service is in keeping with what it is we are trying to do.“
A lot has happened since 1993. As Sen. Levin pointed out the opening of Tuesday’s hearing, “In the latest Gallup poll, the American public overwhelmingly supports allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. Sixty-nine percent of Americans are recorded as supporting their right to serve, and many in fact are serving.“
One recent study estimated that 66,000 gays and lesbians are serving today.
It’s time that they are able to defend their country without worrying their careers will end for the way their brain is wired.


(polls)

Tags: , ,

This website uses IntenseDebate comments, but they are not currently loaded because either your browser doesn't support JavaScript, or they didn't load fast enough.

Join the Conversation

As a straight female with father, grandfathers and husband serving as career military, all during wartime, I share their perspective that the ban SHOULD BE LIFTED. Men and women in service to America come in all types, all stripes, and always have. It is immoral (homosexuality in and of itself is not) to ask these honorable people to lie about their sexuality or anything else for that matter. Sexual misconduct is another story. Want to crack down? Let’s prosecute harassment of enlisted women by military men, as an abuse of power more than as acts of sexuality. Thank you for allowing me to express my feelings on this matter.

The only thing this poor excuse of an Admiral proved is he is pals with perverts, and admits he has known them for years. If he knew someone was a murderer and a junkie, and a pedophile and a practicer of beastiality would he be pals with them also ? To be friendly with desease spreading / abominable / deviants who have given themselves over to the devil, says that Mullen is unfit to to lead anything but a parade in San Fran freako! Bring back General Peter Pace!

swremwin, you are comparing homosexuality to heinous and lawful crimes. Someone can be openly gay without being put in jail for it. It isn’t a crime. They are incomparable. The military used to dicriminate against blacks within their ranks. Why not just go back to discriminating blacks for the color of their skin; something they have no control over? Based on your own line of thinking this appears to be logical. I don’t have control of being straight white and irish, any more than a gay man/woman has control over being attracted to members of their own gender. Its something that is. If I could I would probably have wanted to be scandinavian: be 7 ft tall with golden blonde hair, but I can’t. Instead I accept what I am: irish. Yet you’re apparently in favour of discriminating. Sounds like you got issues with accepting yourself, let alone others for what they are. Additionally, ADM. Mullen is a man of great respect and has served his country for many many years, regardless of his stance on this issue, and does not deserve disrespect from an intolerant punter such as yourself.

First, this discussion centers on one idea — is homosexuality immoral or not? The way that you answer that question will color what you think about gays and lesbians serving openly in the military, not to mention what you think of them in life in general. I may not be able to understand the idea of being gay or lesbian since I am neither; however, the Constitution of the United States grants everyone the right to live they way they see fit so long as that does not interfere with another person’s rights. Adm. Mullen is correct — the people need a voice in this decision, let Americans vote and be heard on the matter. “I hope we can be more thoughtful than that. I expect that we will be more thoughtful than that.” — Adm. Mullen.

It is only a matter of time before gay people are allowed to serve openly. In a time of national emergency hundreds of the most critical personnel with desparately needed skills (arabic linguists, amongst others) were discharged solely because they were gay. This costs lives and endangers our national security, while defying common sense as an added bonus. The result is to openly and publically expose not only flagrant stupidity/ignorance, but also demonstrates that for some folks protecting this nation and its interests isn’t “Job 1″.

The Isreali’s (amongst others) have had gay people openly serving for a long time, and there have been no problems with readiness, and no one I’ve ever run into doesn’t have profound respect for the toughness, aggressiveness, and businesslike attitude of the IDF.

The issue boils down to whether or not you see homosexuality as immoral or not, since through that framework you will judge whether or not they are “fit to serve.” There are concerns about this issue from both sides of the debate, those who feel gay and lesbian behavior is immoral and those who see it as a personal lifestyle choice and not a problem of morality. We can play the game and predict how people will react all we want, or we can let the American people decide. I would hope to see, as Adm. Mullen advocates, intelligent people with critically thinking minds making informed decisions — not rash or emotional judgments. Our decision as American people can not be based on what other countries do or have done, it must be based on the opinions and beliefs of the American people. The Constitution protects American people to live in the manner they see as best, let the people choose.

It’s so sad that the CJCS doesn’t have a clue as to the pulse of the military. I am an active duty Marine with 26 yrs of service. I am not a “homophobe”, I don’t care what they do outside the military. But the military does not need homosexuals and the problems that will arise if the ban is lifted. If you are not a senior officer or enlisted in the FLEET, you don’t have a clue as to the types of issues that this will cause. The vast majority of us still have moral convictions. Homosexuality is an abnormal behavior. If it weren’t our species would cease to exist. The military has standards of conduct. Most of us think homosexual behavior is disgusting, and it does not conform to our standards. So let us govern our own.

I don’t believe that the pro-gay poll represents the majority of military​.com readers. More readers by far post against changing DADT than for changing it, including officers. This poll seems to have suddenly been inserted now rather than during the main debates, which is an important effect of timing among other things.

Admiral Mullen and Air Force Chief of Staff Schwartz (a member of the notorious Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) which is in favor of Civilian Response rather than Military response in general) need to be replaced. Mullen has continually been part of the poor Strategy side in these long Wars that finally tired the public and led to the Democrats 2006 and 2008 victories.

Osher Doctorow

Well put indeed!

As a 2nd Lieutenant that is currently serving (Combat Engineer here) I fully support the Admiral and am prepared to enforce any new policy that comes down. Personally and note that this does not represent the view(s) of the DOD, Army, or the National Guard, I am personally in favor of repealing the policy. I know several soldiers that are gay that are currently serving (I know for a fact they are gay) and they are some of the best soldiers I’ve ever met. For the sake of what is right, and for their integrity and the integrity of the armed forces as an institution, I think it is a moral imperative that they be allowed to serve honestly, the same policies about sexual harrassment and everything else will still be there, so don’t worry.

MAR4LIFE, with all of your 26 years in, maybe you are the one who is out of touch with the pulse of the military. And, for that matter, since when have senior officers and enlisted ever been the ones who are “in touch” with the wants and needs of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines. I personally don’t currently know a single troop who thinks that DADT should continue or one who thinks that gays should continue to be discriminated against. Maybe it is time for you to actually find out how your marines truly feel about the matter (not just what they might say to you because they know how YOU truly feel about it). I am sure you will find that they feel the same way that I and everyone I know feel; as long as they guy next to them is willing to pick up their weapon and stand and fight when the crap starts coming down, who cares what or who they do in their off time.
Open your eyes and welcome yourself to the world Big Sarge. And, for anyone who thinks that gays can not perform and should have no place in the military, how about studying up on great militaries of the world. Try starting with a little group called the Spartans and move on from there.

I am an active duty officer with 6 deployments to Afghanistan and 1 currently ongoing in Iraq. Because I serve Jesus Christ above all, I will leave the job I love if this ban is lifted. This is a prime example of the moral decline America is undergoing. Oh America, when did we take such a radically different course than our founders? What drove us away from our Loving God? How many of the quoted “Sixty-​​nine percent of Americans are recorded as supporting their right to serve” are Christians reaching out and praying for America’s revival? My best guess, 0% of those who read the same Bible I do would agree with this policy. Oh America, what poor choices we’ve made. Please people, this is my belief, not hatred. My sin is no less than that of anybody else. The difference is, I have repented. I am sorry for our regression.

As a former Air Force SNCO, I am terribly disappointed at Adm. Mullen’s comments. The effect on morale and readiness will be far reaching and disastrous. I can just see base housing with gay couples (and yes, that will happen since they can marry in some states, this is simply the tip of the iceberg). What next, transgendered, which uniform, which barracks… Do we allow gay couples to share barracks rooms, if yes, why not heterosexual couples? I see references to other countries armed services, that is simply irrelevant, this is about the US military, not Denmark, not exactly a formidable military force with worldwide comments. The purpose of the US military is not as an experiment for perceived social justice issues, nor is it a right.

I guess you have NEVER know or loved a person that is homosexual. They are good people too!!! I served 21years in the military and I can tell you that the military is made of a crosssection of our society. You can be gay and be a good person, open your mind, try to meet some. I bet you may even have a loved one that is afraid to be honest with you. Have an open mind you might learn something.

In the past few years, the Army has given “moral waivers” to heterosexuals who committed petty crimes such as check bouncing, shoplifting, and mild drug use. Foreign nationals have been given fast tracks to U.S. citizenship by serving in the military. So why can’t gay Americans born here be trusted enough to serve in uniform? Every service has sexual harassment regulations to cover all types of unwanted, inappropriate sexual behavior. Do you really think 10% of the military who may identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual are going to act out, make the other 90% feel uncomfortable? To include slow dancing at military balls, hand holding, and PDA in public? Get real. Female military members are the ones who receive the most harassment in uniform despite the zero tolerance policies in all branches of service.

Mr. McIntyre you just gave a talk in my Journalism class at the U of Maryland. Great job; it was very interesting talk. I’m posting to your blog, and specifically this one, because I read a fantastic article @ Foreign Policy. It’s about Israel’s military which does not exclude gay servicemen and women. Ironically it was in 1993–the same year “dont ask dont tell” began–that Israel opened its doors to committed soldiers, regardless of sexual orientation. This is a fantastic example of why DADT is obsolete and baseless in its foundations.

Here’s a link to the article.
http://​www​.foreignpolicy​.com/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​s​/​2​0​1​0​/​0​2​/​03/...

And thanks for the talk.

I dare you to repeal DADT and allow gays to openly serve in the military. I don’t know about the rest of the military but the Army is not the place for an openly gay male and never will be. Have all the soldiers in the military to fill out an opinion survey like the one they do every year for job satification. It doesn’t require a name or social on it so they can state their real opinions. Base the repeal of DADT on the results from the surveys. I’m willing to bet half my base pay that the majority don’t want gays to openly serve and shower with them.

The Israeli Army is not a volunteer army, they don’t have a choice of serving or not serving with gay soldiers. Every Israeli citizen has to serve. The United States Army is a volunteer army so we do have a choice of serving/showering with homosexuals. I will get out as soon as my contract expires if gays are allowed to openly serve and shower with us. It’s disgusting. I can work with them and I’m 100% sure they can do the same job as I do but I WILL NOT shower or bunk in the same barracks with them period.

__Roger that, sir!!!

As a mathematician, statistician, and physicist, I can tell you that when a pro-gay article like this one is accompanied by a poll, it biases the results in favor of the article ordinarily. It is further biased by the timing of the article which ignores the majority of the previous time when the vast majority of military​.com readers have expressed their opposition to change in DADT. It is further biased by the fact that the top Admiral Mullen is for change in DADT — it’s something like telling people that God is for something and then asking them what they are for!

Osher Doctorow

Israeli citizens have to serve in the military so they don’t have a choice of serving or not serving with gays. The United States is a volunteer military so we do have a choice. We will loose more soldiers than we gain. I don’t know a single one of my battle buddies who would be comfortable showering or bunking with a gay soldier. Duh! Some people are clueless to how the military works and what mentality it has. Get out of your office at the pentagon and come down and ask what the real Army thinks about DADT.

Great!!! So we LOSE out on the company of the closed-minded and ignorant who might have otherwise flocked to our ranks and polluted our service to boot. Man, does this sound more and more like a win-win!!!

” I know several soldiers that are gay that are currently serving (I know for a fact they are gay) and they are some of the best soldiers I’ve ever met”

So lt what does that say about you and your choice to not report these folks that are gay. As an officer you have an obligation to report them and by not doing so you are showing little integrity and even conduct unbecoming an officer.

The point is if we have people like yourself in the service that are willing to COMPROMISE there integrity because their beliefs do not match up with the LAW, then we are in trouble indeed. Preaching “morale imperative” and “for the sake of whats right” mean little coming from someone who only plays by what rules they deem right.

It does not mean someone is close minded or ignorant if they believe the homosexual lifestyle is not right based on religious or moral values. To mock or make fun of them for their beliefs says alot.

Think about it.

So we are all idiots and can’t distinguish Adm Mullen from God? Or, is Adm Mullen G-O-D? Wow, some pretty incredible supposition, assumption, and logic fallacy going on here. Let’s commit to cutting through all the BS, and we can all just lay it out and be honest.

Here is what it all boils down to…are you anti-gay and think that they are all immoral sinners and perverts? Vote NO gays in the military and step to the religious right. Are you anti-nobody and say “shoot, as long as the troop can do their job and cover my six?” Vote who cares and stay right here in the mission-focused middle.

It’s MISSION FIRST for me. And, anyone who can’t handle being a professional and adapting and overcoming to accomplish the mission should find a new less-personally-taxing profession, where one can do their work alone without interaction and distraction from others. Maybe mathmatician, statistician, or physcist?

DADT does not say that you have to report someone that you “know” is gay. It says that someone can be gay and in the military as long as they are not openly gay and don’t tell (and we can’t ask), all good. And, it has always been the moral obligation for soldiers to confront injustices when they identify them. Hence, not following orders to massacre, rape, commit atrocities civilians upon civilians even when possibly ordered to do so.

No, you are right. But, it does make someone closed-minded and ignorant when they assume their way is the right way and the only way and all dissenters to their personal brand of Christianity/religion are sinners. “God is too big to fit into just one religion.” Besides, a religious debate should never enter into the conversation when we speak about our military (which is made up of people from all or most religions). And, if you can’t seperate your personal religious mantra from your professional life, find a career where you only interact with other like-minded individuals, NOT our military!

It might be a good thing now that I’ve had time to think about it. If you have an openly gay guy in your barracks, just file a sexual harrassment charge against him for touching your butt in the shower and the rest of the guys will back you up 100%. Will work perfectly. Overturn the DADT and there won’t be a single openly gay guy left in the military.

I’ve seen female soldiers use sexual harrassment charges to punish male soldiers who won’t date them. We had a female soldier while I was in AIT at Ft. Sam who did it with 4 guys in a hotel room and then filed rape charges the next day. The only thing that saved them was one of the guys had a video camera and recorded the incident. If it works for female soldiers, I’m sure male soldiers can use it to get rid of gay guys.

So here we go creating another group we have to have sensitivity training for. Will they be treated differently for advancements. Will they cry discremination if they are not advanced ahead of their counterparts.

You can’t be a male enlisted soldier because there is no way you would be for it. You must be some officer with his nose stuck up some generals ass trying to impress him and get promoted. Just remember, we do all the work and the fighting. Take care of us and we will make you look good and get you some awards so you can make your next rank. We just want to be left alone and do our jobs. Keep your political bull in your plush offices and your airconditioned meetings. We like the military the way it is. No drama.

You can supprot the Admiral all day long. But your job (just as his) today is to put someone out if they are out of the closet. Rest asured he would put you out if you openly told him over drinks that you were gay. If you were having drinks with him and told him that you had a subordiante that confided in you that heshe was a homosexual he would do his job and pur you out for dereliction and your subordinate for his behaviour as well.

You can supprot the Admiral all day long. But your job (just as his) today is to put someone out if they are out of the closet. Rest asured he would put you out if you openly told him over drinks that you were gay. If you were having drinks with him and told him that you had a subordiante that confided in you that heshe was a homosexual he would do his job and pur you out for dereliction and your subordinate for his behaviour as well.

How about lets talk about ALL gays.….Lesbians for example. Can all of you who are currently in the MC or Navy honestly look at the feamles in the ranks and think a LARGE percentage of them are not gay? I was a 20 year USN nuke and my daughter joined the Marine Corps 3 years ago (Combat Engineer). She tells me as far as the MC goes, she estimates 25–30% of the females are lesbians. And.…everyone knows.…..The enlisted, officers, XO’s, CO’s…THEY ALL KNOW.….but, They don’t ask, and the girls don’t tell. So what is the big deal.…..you don’t want to shower with a gay???? Do you actually think they are gonna come squeeze your butt? Or jump in bed with you at night in snuggle? Perhaps it is you who is not sure about your sexuality.

We want all our service members to have integrity, but we openly tell them they have to lie if they are gay to stay in, when we know nothing prevents them from being good soldiers. I will concede that the homophobes will have issue with it, but, Many racists had issues integrating the races in the military and opening up all MOS’s to blacks 60 years ago. But he we are today with that no longer being an issue.

General Peter Pace! Is second that!

Gosh do people really believe that this policy kept gays out of the military. The simple truth is there are gay people at every rank and in every field. Wow how naive. Forcing people to lie is hypocritical. The idea that if a gay person lets you know in confidence(about sexual inclination), you are obligated under military law to rat him/her out never set well with me. If all the gays protecting our country left the force, our military would be the worse for it. Simply put, a great engineer, doctor, rifleman or whatever should be evaluated on the way he performs his or her duty. Straight or gay is their business not yours mine or the military’s. Misconduct sexual or otherwise should not be tolerated.
With more than thirty years in the military, I have met many great, honorable, proud gay soldiers.

All of you who are pro-gay please read the Old Testament. Read about what God did to homosexual
communities. The military has enough problems dealing with mixed gender issues aboard ships.
The top military leadership needs to take an honest poll of the enlisted troops not the civilians who
do not have a clue what it is like bunking and shareing a head with sometimes hundreds of others.
Like it or not stright men are extreamly uncomfortable around gay men. This is a fact and it cannot
be changed by a change in policy mandated by our civilian leadership.

For those who don’t read much online or offline news, the billionaire backers of Hillary and Obama as early as 2003 and 2004 were already forming groups to emphasize:

1. gays
2. ethnic minorities
3. pro-U.N. “peaceniks“
4. environmentalists and others who put “nature” above everything else
5. criminals (including criminal-defense organizations)
6. anti-military groups including civilian-diplomacy-at-any-pricers and even civilian-espionage-at-any-pricers
7. people who regard legalizing abortion as the main issue in the world

Notice any similarity here as to the agenda that Obama is following and his civilian and military kowtow people are following?

Osher Doctorow

As a Marine who was served honorably for 6 years, I have seen my share of gays/lesbians in my Corps. They knew that as long as they kept their private lives to themselves, no one would interfere. As a straight male, I also know that the Corps expects me to keep my personal life to myself. What I do with my wife on my own time is my business. Civilians do not and could never understand how repealing the DADT policy would affect the military because they have not lived thru the hardships that accompany our jobs. Starting with boot camp and throughout my career, I have been in close quarters with other Marines. If I were to know that another Marine was gay because he was open about it, it would change entirely my approach to him because I wouldn’t shower with this person and wouldn’t want to live in the same barracks room as this person,. Would I want my daughter to be forced to shower with a man, because to not do so would be descriminatory to the man? NO!

Why is navy man being asked about an issue that is most relevent to infantry? What politicians will never do is ask ALL active duty infantrymen what they think.

First off if a guy wants to shove his dick up another guys ass he has every right to do what he wants as long has he pays his taxes and lives in accordance with state laws. I used to be indifferent to gays serving in the military, but after I went through basic there was an incident with my brother flight where one of the trainees was jerking off and trying to get other trainees to suck his dick! The other trainees were huddled in a corner scared out of there minds yelling for their TI to help them.

This issue is not about morality or religion, but what affect removing the DODT policy from the military. Oh! by the way why spend a hell a of lot of the tax payers money on someone that WILL cause problems due to their sexual orientation when there are a lot of people in line at the recruiters office trying to enlist in the military.

In the end the DODT policy will probably be lifted and there will be an incident with a homo being abused or something then some rainbow group will use them as a poster boy and then somebody will probably make a movie of it and the movie will most likely win whole bunch of academy awards for the best performance of human tribulation. WOW! what a joke

Bring Back Peter Pace and for those who are pro GAY and see nothing wrong with this type of behavior do you even know what homosexuality is? Read the book Military Necessity & Homosexuality/Dod’s Policy on Homosexuality by Col. Ronald D Mack. Read the whole book and explain why you would ever want homosexuals in the military.

I guarantee most of the males posting negative things about gays here are only thinking about the “male” side of it. You honestly could care less about lesbians. If the ban is dropped, it is a statistical fact one of your comrades who you love and adore as a soldier, will come out of the closet.….he will be the same person you served with before.….and he still won’t want to get in your pants.…please get over yourself.……

Just in case your wondering.….I am not gay, served with a few who were open about it. A few of them were outstanding servicemen and few were horrible at it.…My daughter (who is gay) and a lioness, has recieved the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. All the marines in her platoon know shes gay, and not one of them gives a ****.…you know why? Because she is a good Marine. FYI, to that end. A few of the marines in her platoon who are gay, have talked to her about it. Both of them think they are the only male who is gay in the platoon.…..So wake up people!!! Do you think they are not already there? They are in the service now!! They do not say anything in fear of being reprimanded and kicked out. In all actuality, most of them would continue to stay silent. But the fact is, they already serve.

Wow, your reference to the Spartans is… interesting, no doubt after seeing the homoerotic “300.” First off, not much is REALLY known about Spartan culture, especially homosexuallity. What liitle is known suggests homosexuality was a WEAKNESS and frowned upon among MEN (adults). We MAY be able to infer some cultural behaviors because of their proximity, but Among the Greeks, so MAYBE Spartans too, homosexuality may have occurred among Adult men and young men (boys), but mainly in the context of mentor/disciple type relationships. Even among among the Greeks it was not looked upon well among adult males.

This is a continuation from the last comment. The comparison between our cultures homosexuals and those of the distant past are almost like apple and oranges. Trying to use the comparison would be more like saying pedophelia is an acceptable form of sexual expression, but we know that is clearly not the case and I hope your not espousing that belief. What ADM McMullen fails to understand is the typical military man is not necessarily against gays, but more against flaming, girly-men. If you remember when you were a kid, you didn’t call someone gay because you thought they liked boys, but because they acted like little girls. That knid of behavior has no place openly in the military. That’s what the Coast Guard is for.….ok ok ok, Just a shot at the Coasties, just kidding.

It’s funny you should say that. I believe you are under the impression today’s Israeli armay is the same one that kicked the crap out of their neighbors. When I read this, the first thing I thought was how woefully unprepared the current Israeli army is now, could this policy have had anything to do with it, hmmmm… I will repeat some of the others. We are not the military of other countries. We are Americans. We have fought and if provoked wil continue to kick our enemies backsides (and I didn’t say KISS them). We don’t have compulsory service and we don’t have unions. We are volunteer. Live with it. So we’ve had gays serving for yeasr, so what. Did it affect their service that they had to keep the sexuaility in the closet. According to them not. So why change it. Have you seen our current homosexual culture. They elevated themselves to the status of a race of beings. Changing DADT would be a mistake and would within a decade lead us to be a laughing stock like other countries militaries.

After reading all these comments, I can say with confidence that I can’t wait for DADT to go away. Maybe that will force most of these idiots out of my military. The ignorance and stupidity here amazes me.

You already are serving and showering with them. And clearly you’ve survived thus far.

Are you okay having your GI Bill funded by the tax-dollars of hard working, gay Americans?
How about any of the other benefits you’ve earned serving our country?

I sincerely agree that the idiots need forced out and I hope that you are not the first to go when you are faced with the decision whether or not to press sexual harassment charges on the guy that asks you to take a trip down the hershey highway.

I also believe all the idiots who can’t compose a proper sentence ‘need forced out’ as well. Laws against sexual harrasment will remain the same. I do not, nor will I ever, have a problem with pressing charges against anyone who sexually harrases me, man or woman.

What we have here is an Admiral who is a purely political creature. He is completely out of touch with those who serve and their families. When the extreme minority visits tyranny on the vast majority by the decisions of an elite core of very few people, the will of the people has been subverted by a process where the elite few pick and choose and impose a fashionable morality of convenience, which creates evil and discrimination. The majority, in this case are demonized as being the haters as a necessity for the survival of the elitists (Admiral Mullen and the President) who survive or profit by the constituency pressing the policy. Their political survival is more important than the obvious reality, with all its negative consequences, placed on those who have to suffer under this policy and least able to resist. This policy is the definition of Governmental evil!

By the way, Osher’s seven points of the progressive agenda are correct. Better start waking up!

Wow, Family Man. Nice summation of someone else’s ideas. Some people might actually mistake you for intelligent since you didn’t attribute those ideas to Hal Lindsay, their source. Maybe, since you don’t actually have the intelligence you try to assert with your 50 cent words, I need to point out to you that the military is not a democracy. We will carry out our orders. If we are told to accept gays, we will do so. I will also make sure the orders of non-discrimination are carried out by the people I supervise. Those who consider it a deal breaker, will leave. Good riddance. The ones who remain will continue to be the backbone of the strongest military in the world. We will be stronger for our diversity. If you don’t want to serve with homosexuals, leave. Get out of my military. Cowards who are afraid of those who different from themselves will not be missed.

Why should I read the old testament? Last I checked this is and never was or will be, a Christian nation, but a Democratic,secular one.

And how does a soldier who likes OTHER GAY PEOPLE make him less of a soldier than someone who likes people of the opposite sex? Some of you people are ridiculous, bringing in your relgious bias in a non-religious matter. ‘But he’ll check me out!” I’m pretty sure you’ve checked out other guys in the showers as well, cant just walk in there eyes closed. If you feel violated sexually or indecency then file a sexual harassement claim, THEY ARE STILL THERE. And whoever mentioned about just filing a fake sexual harassement charge, you are a truly dispicable American, who the hell do you think you are costing someone else’s livelihood for the sake of your own selfishness and peace of mind, quit the military now please so this ignorance can die off.

CONTINUATION…
We will as a society never reach our full potential until we stop being so divisive. We are all different from one another in so many ways (ethnically, culturally, ancestrally, ideologically, etc.), but we have at least one common bond. We are all AMERICANS!!! And, that makes us friends, family, and partners in the greatest nation the world has ever known. Do not deny any of our brothers or sisters their equal right to stand beside the rest of us and fight and die in the service of OUR UNITED STATES.
“The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society.” – Thomas Jefferson

CONTINUATION…
We will as a society never reach our full potential until we stop being so divisive. We are all different from one another in so many ways (ethnically, culturally, ancestrally, ideologically, etc.), but we have at least one common bond. We are all AMERICANS!!! And, that makes us friends, family, and partners in the greatest nation the world has ever known. Do not deny any of our brothers or sisters their equal right to stand beside the rest of us and fight and die in the service of OUR UNITED STATES.
“The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society.” – Thomas Jefferson

When do you leave idiot,read carefully your last sentence in your answer to family man. I guess it’s just a matter of who you think you are superior to, or should I say ” who different from themselves“
Bye and have a nice life

Guess we should have known what caliber of individual we were dealing with by your screen name. Seems to me that most often the ones that are most militant and degradingly anti-gay are normally trying to cover up insecurities and some slight homosexual feelings. Maybe you really do want someone “touching you butt?”

And, for what it is worth…4th generation enlisted Army from long line of highly decorated career Army non-comms. Your assumptions highlight your abilities.

Outstanding!!! And, absolutely the truth of the matter.

What do the Old Testament and God have to do with our military? Do you suppose that everyone in the military is your type of Christian and therefore bound by the judeo-christian law (if anti-gay beliefs are even truly God wishes)? Or, are you going even further to say that our military should be a Christian Army? Well hello, welcome back the crusades and Gerald, leader of the Empire of the Holy Christian Church.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Our father is our final judge, not you. You will not be required to answer for my sins, and thankfully I will not have to answer for yours. If you want to live in an official Christian State, move to one. This is the USA, land of liberty and protectorate against religious persecution. So, if you want to stay with us, learn to live and let live Gerald. Hold your religion and beliefs dear, and allow the rest of us the same courtesy.

“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to Liberty.” — Thomas Jefferson

“No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.”

Is your only “valid” point to criticize a typo? Really? Read a bit, study up, and come back to the big people’s table when you actually have something to add to the conversation.

Thank you. How do so many so easily forget that we “(Congress) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” We are currently a majority christian nation (demographically), but the basic tenants of our society are freedom of religion and that “my rights end where yours begin.” We are absolutely a secular republic, and as soon as we cease to be that we will be no better off than Iran (or any other state that imposes religious doctrine on the whole of their citizenry).

DODT???

The Air Force is in big trouble if one airman basic with his schlong out can force of a whole flight of trainees into the corner, scared!!! What are they gonna do when someone comes at them with a real weapon? Maybe the force needs to go ahead and start out training hand-to-hand against unarmed free-swinging homosexuals (just in case our enemies are reading this also), then work their way up an actual threat?

Perhaps you should all the previous posts before opening your yap with assumptions little man.
have a nice life

Wow, way to latch onto the smallest, most insignificant point. And, by the by, you are correct in that homosexuality was discouraged among Spartan warriors in adulthood. However, during the many years of training in segregation during adolescence, homosexual conduct was encouraged. Either way, this very small point was meant to further dispel the idea that someone who engages in homosexual acts is somehow less fit to be a soldier.
As far as “girly men” go, you are playing to the exception not the rule. Using you logic, maybe we shouldn’t let women in, because they can be a little “girly” and usually aren’t physically as strong as men. Well, except for the “butch” lesbians, but they would also be homosexuals wouldn’t they. I guess maybe we can all concede to allow the hetero females to still be nurses though, right? Oh, and don’t forget the Bell Curve and their findings. Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, Italians, and Irish were found to have lower scores for intelligence. Maybe we should exclude them also, because you know we don’t want an intellectually challenged force.

CONTINUATION…
Guess that just leaves white heterosexual men of northern European (but not Irish and Italians) and Asian descent. Almost forgot, Asians are all smart, but they are a little on the tiny side (besides who can forget Pearl Harbor and Vietnam). Awe, what the heck, let’s just go back to an all white heterosexual (that we know of) Christian (cause God knows we can’t trust them heathens, and besides they are all sinners too, right?) male fighting force. Man, are we making progress or what? We will have the most efficient and cohesive military EVER if we would just get smart and do that. Oh, wait, I forgot. What is the largest Christian denomination in the U.S.? God knows that the “dunkers” (Baptists) don’t agree with the “papists” (Catholics). Guess we should figure out who is in the majority and exclude the others. But, man will we be the true American powerhouse then.
(For those that can’t tell the sarcasm, this is sarcasm and a completely BS way to think – and I do know that the Bell Curve findings are misinterpreted and skewed; just pointing out how intolerant people can use meaningless points to further their agenda).

CONTINUATION…
Guess that just leaves white heterosexual men of northern European (but not Irish and Italians) and Asian descent. Almost forgot, Asians are all smart, but they are a little on the tiny side (besides who can forget Pearl Harbor and Vietnam). Awe, what the heck, let’s just go back to an all white heterosexual (that we know of) Christian (cause God knows we can’t trust them heathens, and besides they are all sinners too, right?) male fighting force. Man, are we making progress or what? We will have the most efficient and cohesive military EVER if we would just get smart and do that. Oh, wait, I forgot. What is the largest Christian denomination in the U.S.? God knows that the “dunkers” (Baptists) don’t agree with the “papists” (Catholics). Guess we should figure out who is in the majority and exclude the others. But, man will we be the true American powerhouse then.
(For those that can’t tell the sarcasm, this is sarcasm and a completely BS way to think – and I do know that the Bell Curve findings are misinterpreted and skewed; just pointing out how intolerant people can use meaningless points to further their agenda).

To DADonahue– Well said, would’nt it be great if more would realize this
have a nice life

First and foremost Israel’s army isn’t what has been subjected to stunning change: it’s the enemy that is vastly different. Israel is fighting multinational organizations with different tactics, technology, and goals than Nasser or Sadat.
Back to the topic of discussion though, gay men and women don’t consider themselves a race. They a group with a distinct identity; nothing wrong with that. Just because a few people act a certain way doesn’t mean they all do–some people from New York like the Yankees; do all? No.
With regard to the issue of volunteer vs. compulsory service: anyone should be able to serve in the US Army. If a gay man or woman wants to and is fit to serve in the US army they, just as any other citizen has the right to do so. Sexuality becomes a distraction when it is treated as one. The Israeli army treats all of its soldiers the same: there expectations do not differ between gay or straight soldiers–all are expected to serve with discipline and bravery. The US Army is losing valuable men and women at a time when it cannot afford to.

Active Duty here. I did an informal poll, just asking what various people thought about the matter. Once past the immediate front of cursing and jokes, the response was always the same, homosexuals should NOT be allowed to serve in the United States Army. The primary concerns mentioned were the insane costs which should go along with allowing homosexuals into the military, for instance additional paperwork and unfair rules to ensure quotas for promotions and the likes, showers, bunks, training. The quotas was a very big point with most people, in that they began to wonder already if they were being passed up because of race, now they do not want to get passed up because of their sexual preference! So of the dozens of people I personally spoke with on the matter, in a serious conversation, not a single U.S. Army Soldier believed homosexuals should be allowed in the military at all.

Perhaps you should re-read what you write yourself if you’re going to bash people for typos. I find your ignorance frustrating.

Am I not the one that you blasted as being a “little man” just moments before you posted this? Just so you know (since you still can’t seem to keep up), the “so many” who “so easily forget” I am referring to includes you. My former comment is not pro-DADT. “Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion” says the Constitution of the U.S. Therefore, since anti-gay sentiment and policy stems from a perceived moral incorrectness based on some religious teachings, it has no place in our government, military, etc. The founders went to great lengths to ensure that we as a society did not try to legislate morality, and you and your kind attempt to circumvent that most fundamental bit of our core rights on a daily basis. CONTINUES…

CONTINUED…
Discrimination and segregation of any kind against any citizen is unconstitutional. This was just as true for Italians and Irish (among others) throughout the 1800s; for woman prior to 1920 and women’s suffrage; and for blacks prior to the 1960s and the civil rights movement. Gays are just the latest victims in a long history of some narrow-minded biggots trying to impose their will on others. So either continue to stay sheltered in your own ignorance and blindness, or open you eyes to the fact that ANY RIGHT AFFORDED TO EVEN ONE CITIZEN SHOULD BE EQUALLY AFFORDED TO ALL.

The argument isnt if gays or lesbians should be allowed in the military or not? Becuase as long as they respect my sexual orientation straight for the ones that cant follow an argument I dont see a problem. The real argument is are they secure enough in their own sexuality to allow gays and lesbians to serve openly? In all my years in the military close to ten I have seen a lot of perverts commit immoral and unethical behavior commited by straight people. Oh and for the one that says that this is infantry issue you are right and as a dirt pounder you can see where i stand.

How many of the Militay will choose not to remain if this policy is lifted?

How is the military going to house them? WIll they now have to ask sexual pref before assigning roomates?

Damn right they will

To Compare HOMESEXUALITY to beign BLACK is a disgrace..

*required

NOTE: Comments are limited to 2500 characters and spaces.

By commenting on this topic you agree to the terms and conditions of our User Agreement