Tora Bora Hindsight?

Tora Bora Hindsight?

“Once conventional wisdom congeals, even facts can’t shake it loose.“
– Paul Bremer, May 17, 2007

It’s so obvious now. If only the United States had sent a few more troops into Afghanistan at the start of the war, Osama bin Laden would have been caught or killed in 2001. And the course of history would have been changed. The failure to dispatch special operations commandos to hunt for bin Laden when he was cowering in a cave in Tora Bora in December of 01, was “one of the greatest military blunders in recent U.S. history,” argues my old colleague at CNN Peter Bergen in the current New Republic.

Or maybe not.


The proposition that more troops would have cut off bin Laben’s escape might be debatable, but so far as the punditocracy is concerned that debate is over. Noted military thinker Maureen Dowd just accompanied Defense Secretary Robert Gates on a trip to the region, and as she writes, “I asked Bob Gates, as we flew over the notorious terrain, if he had any insights into why such a bellicose team as W., Cheney and Rummy flinched at the very moment they could have captured our mortal enemy. Gates, who said there hasn’t been any good intelligence on Osama’s whereabouts in years, said “it’s just hard to find somebody who has a sympathetic network and local support.”

Yes, actually, the old spymaster Gates, ever the pragmatist and fully aware of the shortcoming of “good intelligence” got it exactly right. The idea that bin Laden was cornered, and several hundred U.S. troops could seal off his escape route is highly suspect.

I know many in the military were convinced bin Laden was in fact “trapped like a rat” back in December of ’01.. In his 2005 book “Jawbreaker” former CIA agent Gary Bernsten writes about his request for 800 troops to be deployed along the Afghan border was turned down. Bernsten, who led an undercover manhunt was certain the al Qaeda leader was in a relatively manageable area, and could have been smoked out in a cave-by-cave search.

Instead, according to a recent The Senate Foreign Relations Committee report, “On or around December 16, two days after writing his will, bin Laden and an entourage of bodyguards walked unmolested out of Tora Bora and disappeared into Pakistan’s unregulated tribal area. Most analysts say he is still there today.” Allowing bin Laden to escape was one of the “worst ideas of the decade,” according to a Washington Post decade-end review.

I think this much IS certain with hindsight. The U.S. could and should have done quite a bit more to increase its chances of getting bin Laden, but whether a different strategy would have produced different results is far from certain, and history suggests it was far from a sure thing. It’s also pretty clear that killing bin Laden, would not have dealt a death blow to al Qaeda. As Donald Rumsfeld said at the time, “My attitude is that if [bin Laden] were gone tomorrow, the same problem would exist. He’s got a whole bunch of lieutenants who have been trained and they’ve got bank accounts all over some 50 or 60 countries.” It’s not popular to endorse anything Rumsfeld ever said, but he was probably right about that.

You may recall that in 1993 the U.S. was convinced it knew the whereabouts of Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid, and dispatched Delta Force commandos to capture or kill him. In one raid, Aidid’s personal compound was leveled by an AC-130 gunship. Numerous subsequent snatch missions were launched, all based on “solid intelligence. ” But Aidid always managed to slip away. Why? Because he was surrounded by a large number of sympathizers who were protecting him.

You might also recall that the United States and it allies had over 100-thousand troops in Iraq, and could not find Saddam Hussein for months (I originally wrote more than 2 years, because I erroneously “remembered ‘his capture as being in 2005, not 2003.  See my comment below.), until someone gave him up. Why? Because he was surrounded by large number of sympathizers who were protecting him.

The fact of the matter is that in the rugged terrain of Tora Bora, the idea of sealing the border is problematic at best. Might the U.S. troops stationed at key crossing points have picked bin Laden out from the other refugees fleeing to Pakistan? Maybe, with some luck. Should the U.S. have tried harder? Probably. Would it have worked? Probably not.

In fact its easy to imagine a converse narrative in which the pundits, in hindsight, reflect on the foolish hubris of the U.S. thinking it could capture bin Laden by sealing a border that has never been sealed. A Senate report, authored by a critics of the administration, might, in this imaginary scenario, have suggested a major opportunity was missed to work with Afghan and Pakistani allies who knew the area, instead of using a heavy-handed American approach that alienated local afghans and motivated bin Laden sympathizers to aid his escape.

But whether you are a pundit or politician, the smart thing to do from a PR standpoint is to embrace conventional wisdom whenever it calcifies around a generally accepted consensus. For your image and reputation, it’s better to join it than to fight it. Arguing against the collective judgment of all those smart people can make you look inflexible, and unwilling to face reality. But conventional wisdom is so often, well, “conventional”, that is it’s oversimplified and lacking in any serious consideration of nuance or imponderables. Still, if you just go with the collective judgment of the punditry, while you may not always be right, you’ll always be in good company.

(polls)

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Jamie,

Your points are all well argued, but on one I would raise an issue. Though we should have done everything possible to get Bin Laden at that moment of highest vulnerability (He was our attacker and he was desperate), I grant you that we still might not have managed to nail him. After all, we trained him. But here’s where I differ slightly: in the winter of ’01–02, we had momentum and his dispatch would probably have been a major blow throughout the jihadist world. Recall how cooperative even the Iranians were until we foolishly turned our attention to Iraq. How much more might we have achieved in the post-9/11 arena had we closed the deal on OBL so promptly? In Afghanistan first of all, but internationally as well.

Of course we will never know for sure, but I think you may understate the potential impact of his capture/death at that moment in time. Instead, we moved our treasure and might to a different and quite unrelated spot on the board, hubris trumping the tried and true American virtues of practicality and keeping our eye on the ball.

Going full bore after OBL then might have been too much and might have failed, but it would have been far cheaper and more justifiable than the following year’s Pyrrhic triumph over the local thug Saddam. And we might have had more leverage earlier with Pakistan and other neighbors to deal with the continuing madrassa-driven fuel that drives this movement.

When one contemplates how our military would want to capture or kill Bin Laden, who then, in his or her right mind thinks we didn’t try our best? Why if that is the opinion? Of course we tried and continue to find current, real information concerning the top leadership and whereabouts of these bad guys. Only problem is that our elected officials all seem more interested in passing a health bill while garnering more political power and control over every citizens’ lives than they presently care about fighting the war on terror…can I use that phrase?

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the blog post From the Front: 12/22/2009 News and Personal dispatches from the front and the home front.

Black Five also linked here.

The worst outcome of the relationship between war and hind sight is that it undermines our leaders who at the time, on the ground only have so much intelligence. I mean, when did we start hearing about how close we were to nabbing ObL? like 2005? So, it took that long to put all the pieces together? I have been to Iraq, and I know that we missed high value targets becuase we did not have enough intelligence or resources to act when we had the chance. It sucks when you learn a day later what happened. The only thing you can do is learn and move forward.

Of course, this is based on my belief that Bush and the gang did everything reasonable to catch OBL. I do not think that they purposly with held assets, to me, and to my experience, it doesn’t make sense.

I also agree that capturing OBL would not have ended the war. Look at Iraq. The bloodiest days came after that jackel was captured.

History is written by the Victors with blood.
Then history gets revised.
Then history gets rewritten.
Then history gets erased.
Then history gets rediscovered.
Then history gets critiqued.
Then history gets highlighted.
Then history gets spun.
Then history gets forgotten.
Can anyone prove that the US did not already kill Osama at Tora Bora?
Can anyone prove that they did not deliberately let him get away?
Of course not. Of course the opposite can also not be proven. The thing is the MIC does have a motive for keeping Osama alive and at large. I read in a German newspaper several years ago that two French snipers claimed to have Osama in their sights and were given orders not to shoot him. Could that be a false story?
Of course it COULD be a false story.
If you think that a patriot is a person who trusts what his government tells him and not what other sources say are you likely to believe the story? It sure does not fit with the stories that say Osama died at Tora Bora or that he died later of natural causes.

I stand corrected.
Memory is a funny thing…
I thought Saddam was captured in 2005.
You would think I would know..
I broke the story on CNN that Sunday morning at 4:30am.
I only make mistakes on the things I think I remember, not on the things look up.
There are no fact checkers in the blogosphere..
I take that back… YOU are all fact-checkers in the blogosphere..
and damn good ones too.

Jamie

Jamie, you said: “You might also recall that the United States and it allies had over 100-thousand troops in Iraq, and could not find Saddam Hussein for over two years, until some­one gave him up. Why? Because he was sur­rounded by large num­ber of sym­pa­thiz­ers who were pro­tect­ing him.” Two years? Not exactly. Saddam was captured on 14 December 2003–less than nine months after the invasion. His two sons were caught sooner than that–in July 2003.

For those of you who do not know of which we talk here are some insights into the Afghanistan/Pakistan Pashtun tribes who supported bin-Laden during this time. The Pashtun’s live by a code of honor unknown to many western “civilized countries. This code commonly known as Pashtunwali permits for your enemy to ask for protection and once granted should any harm befall this person your entire family, and this includes a very large extended family in the world of the Pashtun tribes, is held responsible. Thus in the world of the Pashtun tribes giving bin-Laden up to his enemies would be the antithesis of their code of honor no matter that they did not consider him an enemy anyway. Furthermore I invite any of you who have never been to that region to go for a hike in the Tora Bora area. It is not easy by any means and to do it with all the gear that our troops would carry would be difficult if not impossible. Those who live in those mountains would see and hear our troops coming from miles away and bin-Laden would still be gone. If you doubt what I say one only has to read the book by Marcus Littrell, “Lone Survivor” to know that the region bin-Laden was in was very rugged and very dangerous. The chances of us actually capturing bin-laden while he was in the Tora Bora region were nil and those who doubt that have never seen the region nor attempted to walk it with the same amount of gear our troops would have carried. In short it is typical left wing liberal rhetoric to find one more reason for us to say we have lost this war.

Oh yeah and for those of you who believe that Pakistan and it’s Intelligence apparatus were behind us in our attempts to capture bin-Laden well think again. Pakistan’s military intelligence arm has long played both ends against the middle and now they are beginning to feel the pressure of what they have sown with more attacks occurring within their own borders.

Jamie–

Painfully odd that your recent comment was posted as the National Geographic channel aired an eye-opening show about a photographer’s return to Afghanistan. Not just ANY photographer, but one who was extremely close to Massoud of the Northern Coalition. Massoud… who was assassinated on 9/09/2001 by Bin Laden.

I need say nothing more to your readers. They know history. But the Nat’l Geo piece is something that should be required viewing. Because none care and subsequently, none will understand when we get drawn into a nightmare where we are the “occupiers,” holding ground as the corrupt government collapses… and our young patriots die as we struggle to maintain a “status quo” of an infrastructure needed to support our forces. And therein lies the potential for something worse than Vietnam.

–May History Prove me Wrong… please,
Kyle York
Saratoga Springs

Jamie, thank you for an excellent piece. Have followed your career for a long time. Am pleased to have found this site.

Why didn’t we detonate a low-yield nuke at Tora Bora and entomb Bin Laden and his boys there? We could have said something like they must have had a suitcase nuke hidden in those caves and “Ooops… guess someone didn’t read the instructions!!”

If we put pressure on Saud Arabia I think well get him.But the price would be big! We never hear the SAuds familie if there still paying their prins a yearlly sum,as if they are gonna tell us But if we want him we can get him trhu diplomatic and other channels!!

Of everybody addressing Tora Bora and what really went on there, who better to talk than General Tommy Franks?

http://​www​.nytimes​.com/​2​0​0​4​/​1​0​/​1​9​/​o​p​i​n​i​o​n​/​1​9​f​r​ank…

The whole afghanistan invasion was a fiasco in the making as was Iraq. The need to go was not the issue. In both instances Bush went in with too few troops and assets to do the job so he could try to play a PR game with the muslims to show them they had nothing to fear from us. In Afghanistan we tipped the balance of power in favor of the side we supported but we failed to give our soldiers the support equipment they needed to fight a war in a country where war is the national pastime. Not only did Bush not send in sufficient troops but they wouldn’t even allow artillery into the country to support operation for the first 3 years. Easily airlifted 105’s could have ended battles sooner and saved lives but instead soldiers were forced to wait up to 2 hours for a naval jet to arrive on scene to bomb an enemy target that might not even be there anymore! Minute one we should have hit Tora Bora from multiple directions with the bunker busters to at least crack the walls and then hit it with a moab and possibly each grid square around it. If we are not going to engage and destroy the enemy then lets get our soldiers out.

Armchair generals, don’t you just love them.

Charles,
We didn’t train Bin Laden. Many believe that because it has been spread around the internet, but like many “facts” spread via internet, it’s not true.

The problem was not whether we could send more troops. We had enough there already. At issue is a problem that still plagues our Special Operations and Military Intelligence communities: How much freedom of action do you allow commanders on the ground, and how much control do you retain in Washington and Tampa? It would seem to be a simple matter to relay the situation from the ground through Tampa to Washington and to get decisions, but in reality there are far more bureaucratic obstacles there than the public can imagine. Then, once inside the beltway, SECDEF Rumsfeld had a legion of senior civilian bear-baiters who pitted him not against ALQ, but against the CIA. The truth of the matter is that in Washington, and sometimes Tampa, you have more enemies than you can handle, and for many, national security has more to do with political gain than with action.

We will neverget OBL. That is until we no longer bow down to the Saudi royal family. He is there lost son, he is still blood and they wont “allow” us to do to him what we did to Sadam. Besides catching him would’nt have ended the war either.

9/12/2001 we had boots on the ground in afghanistan.…how can anyone be so naive to think not…all of these arm chair generals that say some intelligible remarks Know? IF you have ever experienced the terraine and solitude of this hell hole you would not be shooting your pie hole off.…There is only one way to get him . A lucky bb or infiltrate… low-yield nuke how stupid you have to be joking…Easily airlifted 105s which is even a more stupid idea(.e.g. 30 degree slope Good Place to setup , time consumption is crazy, etc.) Lets see how about we just fly around with 105’s hanging off helicopters, have aircraft saturating the area with a free fire order (yea right)

Woulda, coulda, shuda .… …

If I’d been born handsome .…

Thing is, it didn’t happen, and getting on with what is real is real, and should be the target.

“Dereliction of Duty”.….….…..just read the book.….….…then you will know the “FACT” about how clinton, while watching a golf tournament, “dismissed” (with a wave of his hand) the Sec Def’s PLEADING to take out Bin Laden. We (the USA) had Bin Laden in our proverbial sights, but clinton would NOT give the order to take him out. “MOST” of what is happening today could have been avoided if only clinton would have done what he swore an oath to do .….“Protect the USA”.….……for that alone, I will never vote for a democrat again & wil forever have great disdain for clinton!

THIS IS NOT NEWS!! I HEARD FROM A FRIEND THAT HIS FRIEND WAS A CIA AGENT AND THAT THEY HAD BIN LADEN CORNERED IN A CAVE IN TORA BORA BUT THEY (CIA) WAS CALLED OFF BY THE UPPER ECHELON OF OUR GOVERNMENT. NOW THAT THIS HAS BEEN BORN-OUT TO BE FACT. I CAN NOT HELP TO THINK THAT THE UPPER PART OF OUR GOVERNMENT WANTED WAR FOR RELIGIOUS AND MONETARY REASONS. SICK, SICK AND ASHAMED THAT THESE PEOPLE IN OUR GOVERNMENT COULD DO SUCH A THING

My recollection is we had assets in country that were pulled out for the Iraq invasion. Then Bush decided that privatizing the capture of bin ladin by using warlords was a great idea. Remember the fact that all the war lords fought against the Russians, and after the end of the war, fighting among the war lords fractured the country. So what Bush and Co. did was count on folks who fought alongside bin ladin, who after the war demonstrated they were all about money and power. So #1 — you know bin ladin, and likely can easily talk to him, and #2 bin ladin had access to Saudi cash, and I find it difficult to believe a war lord would put himself out to hunt down a comrade. Why wouldn’t you simply ask osama to pay the toll to use the road?

I would think Bush and co. understood this, as they did in fact open a foreign office of haliburton to sell oil field drilling equipment to their old friend Sadam, during the time of trade sanctions established by Bill Clinton.

With the helicopter assets available it would have taken 3 days to lift a battalion sized force into the Tora Bora complex. This with the unlikely assumption of an unopposed HLZs, 100% availability of assets and a max load of 12 troops per stick. Further at Tora Bora’s 14K feet elevation helicopters would have had to operate at near maximum altitude and with limited escort or rest. A well placed enemy force on the Tora Bora approaches would have had the advantage of unrestricted fields of fire and would have wrecked havoc on the heliborne assault force with the use of HMGs and AA weapons. High first wave casualties would have resulted in an aborted mission and an inglorious defeat for US forces.

Those who say we could have easily captured or killed UBL at Tora Bora with the use of inserted ground force in mountainous terrain fall into the category Gen Norman Schwarzkopf termed “military faeries”.

Maureen Dowd a “Military Thinker”? Her articles have nothing to do with logic or facts. The few that I have read left me with the impression that they were written by someone in middle school. As far as Osama Bin Laden is concerned, if it was possible to capture or kill him it would have been done. As we found out after the end of Vietnam, depending on and trusting the host countries forces is a mistake. The South Vietnamese army was heavily infiltrated with VC and NVA spies, several holding senior rank. I would expect the same of the Afghan forces/militias.

It sounds like you think you know what you are talking about, but the simple fact is that you do not know. Why would you need a 105 when you have 120mm indirect from mortars? I can comfortably say that you were not there and that your opinions are misguided. As far as waiting for TAS or CAS.…sometimes you do.…sometimes you don’t. Also.…you need bodies. You can’t obliterate an area and then just assume “We got em’!” That’s all we need to fuel further debate is for people to think that OBL may or may not be buried under 100,000 tons of rock (as nice a reality as that would be). I imagine that if you were in the miltary you are probably some disenchanted E-3 from the 101st or 10th MTN who is fairly young or that you were never in the miltary at all and you love reading rhetoric from left sided media-statics who are “noted miltary THINKERS”.

I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend with another guy’s friend that Bin Laden was having tea in a Dunkin’ Donuts in Kabul with 12 Green Berets and John Rambo and they didn’t even know it was him!
Another guy that doesn’t have a clue.

Outstanding! A person that is actually speaking from educated experience. See it is easy to tell the people who know what they are talking about from the knuckle-heads.

Your recollection is shot.…as forces were entering Iraq an additional Battalion of Special Forces were hitting the ground in Afghanistan. I know because I was there.…..so you can’t tell me I’m wrong. What you call privatizing is what we like to call involving indigenous personnel to increase our chances by giving us an asset that has first hand knowledge of the theatre. It would also instill an awesome sense of pride to a country to have it be one of their own that takes out Bin Laden. Who better to fight a war against an enemy in their own country.….one of its own citizens. Come on people.…this is Unconventional Warfare 101. You can’t fight this war like it’s a tank battle on the plains of Africa in 1944.

Also, don’t forget that Sudan offered us Bin Laden’s head on a platter and Clinton also turned that down.

OR.……people could just stop wasting space by posting jibberish proving that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I remember this article.…good reading.

With the helicopter assets available it would have taken 3 days to lift a battalion sized force into the Tora Bora complex. This with the unlikely assumption of suitable unopposed HLZs, 100% availability of assets and a max load of 12 troops per stick. Further at Tora Boras 14K feet elevation helicopters would have had to operate at near maximum altitude and with limited escort or rest. A well placed enemy force on the Tora Bora approaches would have had the advantage of unrestricted fields of fire and would have wrecked havoc on the heliborne assault force with the use of HMGs and AA weapons. High first wave casualties would have resulted in an aborted mission and an inglorious defeat for US forces.

Those who say we could have easily captured or killed UBL at Tora Bora with the use of an inserted ground force in mountainous terrain fall into the category Gen Norman Schwarzkopf termed “military faeries”.

OR.……We could have loaded Bradleys into the Space Shuttle and then parachute dropped them from outer space into the mountains so that you had some sweet armor support for our boots on the ground (who, by the way, should all have been outfitted with bows and arrows with explosive nuclear tips) and then put tank treads on an aircraft carrier and sent it inland so that it doesn’t take that long for the new Mach 200 jet fighters to get there with their 900,000 pound bombs and then the Navy SEALs could fast rope over the side and kill everything that moves with light sabres and we could send the GI JOE sub-terrainean drill through the middle of the earth and come up inside the tunnels!!!

What I find remarkable coming from some camps, is the call for us to withdraw and let the Afghans handle “their own mess,” yet these same pundits condemn when Bush tried using Afghans more in getting OBL.

These same pundits (or their parents) pulled the same crap on us in Viet Nam.

Armchair PRIVATES who never served, but think they know more about tactics than those who have.

I wish we would have at least try to get him. If we tryed and missed ok at least we tryed to get him but we did not even try to capture him. So now all we do is talk about it and all around us things are happening and we don’t have much control over. So lets get off our butts and stop talking and start working at finding him and do it.

Ed Kearns
p/s if any thing i can do to help just call or let me know.

I think the person responsible for the death of over 100,000 human beings deserves a more appropriate label than “local thug”.….the is understated. I don’t exactly know what your definition of Pyrrhic is, but in no way, shape or form does that word belong in any sentence regarding the war in Iraq. There is no “unbearable” cost associated with the war on either front. The likelyhood that OBL’s early death would have an effect as a “major blow” on the jihadist world is an ignorant thought. And then you use the word “cheaper” in your cost analysis of Iraw vs. Afghanistan. You couldn’t be one of those people that thinks there should be a price limit on National Security could you? Well.…you did use the word pyrrhic.

In addition.……I’m sure that you have read up a bit on Islamic extremest, but these people do not stop. They hate you. Whether you support the war or don’t support the war does not matter to them. Whether they have OBL as a figure head or not makes no difference either.…..what makes a difference is that they HAD him and for eternity he will be a figurehead.…he is the hero of Islam who perpetrated 9/11.…that’s all these people need. They want you dead because you are free.…because you do not belive what they believe.….because you are white or even just occidental.…because you are Christian or Jewish or Buddhist. I am not a war monger, but I am slowly believing more and more as time goes on that they only way to stop them is to kill them all. Not all muslims, but all radicals, terrorists etc.…..kill them all. They read a book that tells them to kill everyone that does not accept their word. Even an atheist knows that this principal is wrong.

I agree.….Another question.….Does anyone think that Janet Napolitano is actually a good fit for DHS? I am LMAO at the people who are running things right now. And would you like to know who is running things? US!!! WE are letting this happen. WE put these bozos in office. BTW all…it was Hillary Clinton’s department that should have revoked this latest terrorist’s visa and obiously that was overlooked, BUT as usual she will get to keep her job and there will be no accountability other than some $40,000/yr Joe Familyman that will lose his job because some email that he was supposed to get didn’t get sent.

Another educated post.

9/12/2001 we had boots on the ground in afghanistan.…how can anyone be so naive to think not…all of these arm chair generals that say some intelligible remarks Know? IF you have ever experienced the terraine and solitude of this hell hole you would not be shooting your pie hole off.…There is only one way to get him . A lucky bb or infiltrate… low-yield nuke how stupid you have to be joking…Easily airlifted 105’s which is even a more stupid idea(.e.g. 30 degree slope Good Place to setup , time consumption is crazy, etc.) Lets see how about we just fly around with 105’s hanging off helicopters, have aircraft saturating the area with a free fire order (yea right)
Some of you have got to be joking…please give yourself at least 24 hours (to think)before posting your gibberish

Are you for real? You really think that we didn’t try?? Well thanks for telling me and my friends that WE didn’t try! We tried like hell!

If we had bin Laden cornered, we should have apprehended him and given him a citation, as well as a strong reprimand.
jifko2@yahoo.com

Chances are that more likely than not he would have been captured or killed. Timing in military situations like this is critical to success. Regardless of the nay sayers, the U.S. military when given a clear mission, sufficient motivation and the resources and support needed, bin laden was in a very vulnerable position back then and capturing him or killing him would have been easier than it is now!

PW

Why this sudden practice of calling our Special Operation operators “com­mandos”? In the past, this word has been used in Europe for their troops, and here in the US by the online wannabe crowd, but not in the media. Why now? Neither Special Operations Command or any of the service contingents use the word. Is it because “commandos” sounds sexy? Daring? As far as I’m concerned, the word is simply another layer to distant an already distant people from the reality of our military.

Infiltration is always a concern in UW. That’s why it is called “unconventional” warfare.….that does not change the fact that in this type of low intensity conflict you use what assets you have available when you have them. Having a few spies or turncoats in the mix does not change the efficacy of host nation armies. Not using them also creates animosity and an environment of dissent. You can’t take a bunch of 101st soldiers or Marines from the 11th MEU and put them on the ground in an area where they don’t know the terrain, don’t speak the language and expect them to succeed against guys who have been living in and fighting in those mountains since they’re mothers swadled them in camel skin diapers.

I think what the people are saying is that they “personally” could have killed Bin Laden at Tora Bora with their daddy’s shotgun!!

Thanks Colt
Now remember COMSEC…I do not need to know the chains whereabouts.…Just that we have too many restraints due to lack of COMSEC, erroneous reports by unqualified individuals, and of course the cowboy effect e.g. nuke them, hang 105’s off helicopters, some job scaredlR.O.A.D(retired on active duty).some chicken**** pilot that will drop bombs if scared? You know what I mean…

It is interesting in reading these comments and even the story. The men that were at Tora Bora were from DELTA being accompanied by Northern Alliance troops/thugs from Hekmatyr Gullbaden(sp). Two books have been written by the Commanders of DELTA, “The Mission, My Men and Me” and “Kill Bin Laden.” I trust these mens’ integrity more than all Newscasters combined. When they state that guns were held on them when they thought they eyeballed Bin Laden and attempted to get him after the Northern Alliance refused, I believe them. They also did mention that they contacted the White House and don’t know who it was but they were told also by the White House to not attempt to “get him.” Even with Bush’s naysayers, I think that they can also believe that Bush was a man of his word. If he made an agreement that the Afghans were in charge of their country and we would help them, then their word was the last word and we abided by their decision. Or the U.S. would have been short a few dozen of the most capable soldiers in the world. It would be hard for 70 or 80 men to outgun 2,000 Northern Alliance, no matter how bad the Northern Alliance soldiers/thugs were.

Join the Military or enter into politics as an honest politician that actually has altruistic motivations that he executes and NEVER sways from. I know.….…its like asking the impossible.

All we did was place are selves in a generalized area because that is all we could do. It would have been blind luck if we stumbled accross him. It was better than doing nothing at all. Those mountains of the Hindu Kush are MAN EATERS!

In a terrain like Tora Bora 800 troops, even the best, would have been useless unless you put a division plus 50 drones looking at anything that moved. But worst of all, and I firmly believe “interrupting” the Afghan war by invading Iraq, was about the worst thing possible. The fact that no additional troops were sent is probably based on the decision to go to Iraq. Thus we gave all the time to UBL to regroup and expand and we have seen the consequences. Pres.Bush et al made a horrendous decision, we lost over 4000 killed and God knows how many permanently maimed for life. For what?
By the way, I am a Korean war veteran so my critique is not political.
P.S. We had “people” on the ground before going to Afghan, we should also have had on the east side.

AQ assasinated Massoud with the aid of Pakistani Intelligence and strategically so. Massoud found out about the 9/11 attacks on 9/9 and was due to fly to Germany right after the “interview” in order to provide evidence of the plot. History tells the rest. The orchestration of all the events since Saudi in 1991 have all unfolded to lead us right where we are today. We need to smarten up starting with getting the right people in place to execute this war to a standard.…not with time or money constraints.

You are on the right track, in my opinion, but I disagree that this conflict could even come close to Vietnam. If we did not have Vietnam though, we would be having it now in Vietghanistan.

Diplomatic channels of Islam.……ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!! Wow!! That is hilarious. Diplomacy has worked AWESOME in the Middle East and southwest Asia. They LOVE diplomacy.….it gives them more time to get their crap together to carry out attacks! Wake up. What kind of pressure are we going to put on one of the wealthiest countries in the Milky Way? Maybe we’ll stop sending them oil.…..ha ha ha ha ha!! And for people who think that if we stop buying oil from them they will choke on it need to wake up too. China’s demand for oil will just fill that gap nicely. Once again, in case everyone has not been listening to the experts for the last 9 years, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF WE GET HIM!! The movement will still be alive. It would be nice and symbolic if we did get him, but he willjust become a martyr. We need to make them ALL martyrs.

Yes, we tried.. with what we had. The problem of elected officials is realm except we are taling about the previous administration. Why did Pres. Bush et al decide to invade Iraq instead “escalting” our war in Afghanistan. In those days we had the Taliban and UBL on the run and eventually would have gotten the sob. Instead we gave them TIME to regroup and expand. We are seeing the consequences.
Iraq could have been taken anytime with fewer losses. We were just as wrong initially in Iraq as we were by stopping our pursuit of UBL. So, RJJ, do not listen to Rush or Sarah and get the real facts.
I am not politically inclined and I am a war veteran.

To the letter!! This is what happens when we stray from the priciples of executing a war.….ESPECIALLY an unconventional war. We have some of the most educated and intelligent people on the ground that history has ever seen. The MDMP does not need to be interfered with by a bunch of guys that work at the north end of 395 who most likely never served in the military or if they did; not in any operationally combat driven decision making capacity. National security, especially with this administration, has become nothing more than a talking point with a lot of little ants scurrying around the ant hill (Capitol Hill) running into each and then changing direction only to head back where they came from trying to look busy. Action without intelligent thought is almost as good as inaction.

Once again just because somebody is a war veteran does not make them an expert. Thank you for serving our country, but you are mistaken in your information. We were never trying to “take” Iraq.….and I raq is starting to look like there will be some closure in the not too distant future. As far as fewer losses is concerned.…we have had about 40% less casualties than were expected. This is all documented. We have never stopped pursuit of Bin Laden. People seem to be under the notion that this is all just about one man. This is not and never has been just about him. Do we want him? Of course we do. I, on the other hand, really believe that he is already dead. Most likely sometime around 2005. They were not given time to regroup.….they were in Pakistan!! Pakistan gave them time to regroup. Our kill rates in Afghanistan have been outstanding! You wouldn’t even believe the number if I told you.

In addition.….Our goal is to eradicate ALL of these people or change their minds through fierce action that is so swift and violent that they will never think twice about walking the path that they are now on. Here is where the real problem lies: PATIENCE.…there is not enough.….their movement has been brewing for decades and decades.….you could even go as far to say a century (if you’re a history buff at all).…it is going to take TIME to end this. AND…you are politically inclined.…if you weren’t you would not be telling people who NOT to listen to.

Also.…we never had assets withheld. We were given everything that was available at the time. Things can always be done differntly. That is why every action is reviewed after the fact. You take what you have learned and capitalize on opportunities for next time. No plan survives first contact!

Well, the 2 sons weren’t exactly “caught” LOL However, the circumstances of their demise just goes to show again that the people who are radicals or extremist are dedicated nut jobs. 2 guys against 1000.….they really loved life. Even Rambo knows those odds are bad!

It does not matter what was done.….it only matters what can be proven!

One SF soldier who was leading the effort claims that when the troop proposal was turned down, they asked higher to airdrop mines in the passes to cut-off OBL’s escape routes. Higher refused, without giving a reason. Since the territory mined would be across the border in Pakistani territory, such an action would be a violation of Pakistani sovereignty and compromise the always tenuous relations with that “ally.” These designs can never be divorced from the larger global strategies our govt is pursuing. Both administrations have needed to keep nuclear Pakistan stable and somewhat cooperative to win the larger struggle against extreme religion.wars. This is not easy to swallow, but it is a fact.

It was never really the Afghan’s mess. Its the Taliban’s mess. The people of Afghanistan just want to be dumb and happy like I do!! The power gaps have just been filled by the wrong people. Thank God that the U.S. has the ability to help them get straightened out. I believe that our motives have always been mostly altruistic.…when I say mostly I mean that an American soldier on the ground is 100% altruistic.…there might be a few knuckle heads in DC that have other ideas, but one thing is for certain.…we are not in Afghanistan for oil!!

He was even more vulnerable from 1993 — 1999. What about then? Oh, yeah.…..the Clinton administration.

Roger that!!!!!!!!!

You can’t expect a lot of the people who speculate on these things to read books like that from people who were actually there. Then there would be no room to speculate. Plus these books are non-fiction and not written by a celebrity politician, Oprah or a talk show host. It is a complicated world we live in…its even more complicated on the front lines of the war on terror and has been since day one. This is, once again, why this war does not need to be primarily conducted by the conventional military. An uncoventional war needs to be primarily executed by soldiers who are not only trained to be the best “door kickers” in the world, but who also speak the language, are diverse in the cultural nuances of the region, understand that war is not always about the business end of a gun, andare more concerned about standards than time. Those mountains in and around Tora Bora was loaded with American Operators that are smarter and more well trained than the majority of the population could even contemplate. If it was possible to do then.…it would have been done. I am fairly confident that Bin Laden was taken care of in Pakistan sometime in 2005.

Was an option, but not really viable for the reasons you stated. You have to think about the recovery of unused ordinance as well. In a different situation it might have worked.

Again, the war in Iraq did not interfere with Afghanistan. As the war in Iraq was kicking off an ADDITIONAL battalion of Special Forces soldiers were hitting the ground in Afghanistan.….I know because I was one of those soldiers. In August of 2003 another entire Brigade from the 10th Mountain Division also arrived in Afghanistan, as planned, well before Iraq even started. Command and Control of a Division in Tora Bora would have been a disaster that is why a limit was put on the number of soldiers on the ground. Trust me, the amount of soldiers we had on the ground was plenty. You can’t go using a broadsword for a surgery that requires a scalpel. After action reviews determined that there were other reasons for a few details not going exactly the way we wanted. There are a few books out already that explain. We entered Tora Bora with a few goals. We accomplished most of what we set out to do.….kill or capture as many, what are now referred to as anti-coalition militants, as we could.

Whether we could or could not have got Laden or some other high official in Al queda at Tora Bora is almost irrelevant to me. The true point is that we could have got him at other times over the years by both democratic and replubican parties in power at one time or another, but when you have to go up the chain to the president’s level to make a quick kill decision, it is far too late to do much when the decision is finally made. Running the military by civilians is overall not necessarily a bad idea but running it by politicians who can’t fart without a position paper and poll numbers in their hands are ruiness to our direct operations and we might as well forget about getting the bastard ever unless it is of course by one of our chance incurrsions.

Additionally.…..this is an unconventional war. This is not heavy force on force combat. This requires asymmetrical approaches that even most conventional military people would not understand much less the rest of the population. As far as the losses in Iraq.…..any loss of lofe is tragic. How many people were lost in Korea? And in what time frame? How many people were lost in WWII? And in what time frame? The loss of life in Iraq and Afghanistan is much less than what was initially estimated and this war has been going on longer than WWII and Korea almost combined. There are many reasons we went into Iraq.…one of them which justifies the war alone is the fact that a dictator was responsible for the murder of over 100,000 people.…if that is not enough then maybe we should have let him go to holocaust levels.….oh not to mention the 1000 member strong AQ training camp that was routed by a Battalion of SF soldiers in Northern Iraq that not too many people hear about or the fact that Iraq had failed to abide by UN resolutions year after year after year.

Iraq is only one small country away from Afghanistan. A country called Iran.…where do you think quite a few AQ ran on that side of the country when we intiated? America has lost its intestinal fortitude. I will never argue tactics, but one thing IS a fact. It DOES NOT matter if we got Bin Laden or not. People need to get it through their heads that Bin Laden was just a figure head. His job has been over for a while. The damage was done long before 9/11. We are in Afghanistan now due to events that took place during the 1980’s. We are in Iraq now because of events that FAILED to take place in the 1990’s.

If we had bin Laden cornered, we should have apprehended him and given him a citation, as well as a strong reprimand.
jifko2@yahoo.com

…or at least extracted a real good campaign contribution.
Did you hear the rumor that Bin Laden has the entire top floor of a Ramada Inn in L.A. Money rules!

On target.

The author is an idiot and has no clue what happened after 9/11. We did have special ops and commando troops on the ground in Afghanistan NLT 09/13/01 — We know this because we knew some of the guys that went.

Who says Obama is still alive? A few doctored tapes? somone else in disguise? We may never know. Last I heard, we still were digging out the caves we hit in Tora Bora and still pulling out bodies/skeletons. But to imply that we didn’t send troops over there is totally false. One guy we knew didn’t even evacuate out when his father died, he decided to stay there, some of them denied the offer to come home after a year — they wanted to stay and keep looking and digging.

Did the media know about this? NO, and there were reasons for that. These idiots think the war started in Iraq, not for some of our troops.

Bin Laden vowed his body would never be found and his Lt.s were sworn to carry out his orders. I believe he was killed though bombing of caves in Tora Bora. Since that time there has been absolutely NO proof that he is alive. It is to Al Qaeda’s benefit to keep the myth alive.

Putting paid to OBL would have required a true Delta type mission, not a Hollywood or Dick Cheney political corruption of the military. Don Rumsfeld and Dick and “W” did not have the strategic, operational or tactical where with all to conceive of or order SOCOM to carry out such a mission. Also we did not have any friendly “partisans” on the ground to assist with the mission, had it been attempted.
All I can add is this historical note; President Franklin Roosevelt and GEN Donovan are probably turning over in their respective graves over the failure to use SOF type forces to liquidate OBL!

The same reason that the media refers to almost everyone in the Special Ops community as “Special Forces”. There is a clear cut difference in the fundamental jobs between SF, SEALs, Rangers, PJ’s, CCT, SOAR etc etc. The blanket term Special Operations Forces (SOF) needs to be the norm. Not Special Forces.…which refers specifically to Army.

You need to do some research on Task Force Dagger.……I think after a little reading you might have a different opinion.

The fact that Bush stopped pursuing, for all intents and purposes, the person responsible for 9/11, OBL, by diverting most of the country’s resources and military personnel to his pursuit of Hussein, who was not involved in 9/11, is mind boggeling. The Bush team was dreaming about invading Iraw for years before 9/11. Since Bush sent ten times a many troops to Iraq as he did to Afghanistan, dosen’t that suggest that Hussein was much more important to Bush than Bin Laden? How could a president shirk his constitutional duty to caputre OBL (the one he promised to bring back “Dead or ALive”) by focusing our forces on removing Hussein from power by lying to the american people that Hussein was an imminent threat to this country? Hussein was not a threat. Iraq was the most contained country in the world. Maybe OBL would be in capativity today if Bush had kept his focus on the real target.

Kyle,
One needs to listen to the quotes of some of our military leaders. We have never occupied a country for ever and usually only ask to keep enough land to bury our heros. We are also very far from a Vietnam repeat unless our government tries to dictate the outcome the same way it did in the Vietnam war. Mistakes are made in battle and in strategy but any one can be an arm chair quaterback.

As I read one of the statements here and it said maybe if we sent in special operations operators that we would have captured bin Laden well whoever wrote that needs to read a book particularly the book “Killing Bin Laden” which was writen by a former CAG (Delta Force) commander who was on the ground in Afghanistan at the battle of Tora Bora. He talks about how US forces hunted bin Laden down, had him trapped but managed to slip away because he had help from our so called “allies” Pakistan. Read that book before writing comments saying that there were no US special operations on the ground trying to find this scumb bag because they where there doing the best they could with the information they had.

Does anyone remember the Australian SAS motto, “he who dares wins”? We didn’t and now have to live with the consequences. Should we be actively searching for OBL now, sure. It is the right thing to do. I note many apologists for the Bush/Cheney regime here, including one who digs up some old Clinton era stuff.
The fact is that during the 8 years of Bush/Cheney we didn’t capture OBL.

According to several new books in the military history section of Borders Books, the odds are that bin Laden and some of his henchmen would have been killed by US special ops and CIA operators. One good account is Horse Soldiers about unconventional ops in late 2001. Now, as a retired army general put it, “There are around 14,000 mudwalled villages in the tribal areas of Pakistan/Afghanistan and bin Laden and his diehards are in one of ‘em…”

Idiot.….…..I personally know 100’s of people who dared. I’d be surprised if you knew what year it was you are so far behind the current event curve.

Changed your opinion yet?

You should change your handle to 3 war pack clerk.

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